Damn…I missed that part of the telecast, and came in during Belinda Lewis’ dress down of city council for budget cuts (which she did a spectacular job with)…

Gotta watch the replays.

WTG, AWB!

Keep those hits coming!

B.G.

Dan, I think your 100 million comment is not directly on point. The report says: “a first class Marriott or Renaissance Resort could often exceed $100 million in the aggregate”

Obviously, there could be a huge range within this type of hotel and would be greatly impacted by size, location, etc. I am sure a Renaissance Resort hotel in Vegas might cost a little more than one planned for Fort Wayne. I am sure a Renaissance Reort hotel built in Orlando with multiple swimming pools and luxuries would cost more than one planned in Fort Wayne.

I understand your argument but I think it is a little off the mark in my opinion.

I should have the video up tonight…

I found the entire dressing down of the public by Hayhurst, Pape and Talarico Jr. to be unacceptable. These people are elected to represent all of us.

I found Sam’s comments he stated above to be one that should have been stated during the meeting. It would have provided a great deal insight for everyone to consider.

I am sure many times the council members have facts that have not been made available to the public, One would think they would share them either during the meetings or start a web site to provide the information.

We may end up not agreeing, but at least we know what things went into the decissions.

Every year the Animal Shelter gets drilled on spending. It is one of the smaller departments within the city. That may be the reason it is subject to such review. The larger departments could bury money and so forth that would take forever to find. That is not saying it happens but one has to admitt it would be far easier then a small department.

Hey Sammy, it appears your willing to do anything to hang on to your little power base. Going out and promoting and voteing for the demo challenger just to maintain the “Good ‘Ol Bastards” power structure is shameless at best. It’s no wonder that if you call Kelty a politition that you can see the hair stand up on the back of his neck. You and your kind are so pathetic and full of I can smell you from here !!!!!!!!!

From Boston Business Journal - February 18, 2005
Turner Construction Co. has beat out at least a half-dozen of the city’s top general contractors for pre-construction work building a Marriott Renaissance hotel in South Boston, positioning the firm for the full $90 million construction contract.

According to the Marriott source, the hotel — slated to cost $140 million total to develop — will serve convention-goers, leisure and business travelers, and local groups needing hotel meeting space.

Nice intelligent response Cannon man.

Sam,

With all due respect I think your argument is the one off the mark. Of course there are a range of prices for each level of hotel but a Renaissance Resort requires certain materials and services that will represent fixed costs.

Dan’s point was that there is likely no Renaissance anywhere in the country being built for the amount they told us they were going to do it for. And at the very least someone should have investigated this long before it was too late. Now I think bloggers can share the blame on this as it’s our duty to provide oversight. However, I am surprised that Dr Hayhurst didn’t catch this since he is (self-proclaimed) more knowledgeable about the issues than we are…

Jeff. actually you are 100% wrong on this.

I dont feel like drafting a 4 paragraph comment, but I would be happy to talk with you about why AWB and now you are off the mark on this.

Mr. Talarico, Cannon Man was merely stating his opinion regarding your performance and positions as an elected official, as is his right. granted, his writing style is not the same as yours, but his opinions and beliefs are no less worth of consideration than yours. Your condescending reply is symptomatic of the attitude of elected officials toward those who pay the bills in this city, and one of the principal reasons that Matt Kelty seems to be resonating so well with the Republican base. Perhaps you should reevaluate who serves whom and conduct yourself accordingly.

Oh my, a typo…I should correct myself before my intellect is questioned as well. I should have capitalized the “G” in granted.

Jim, your response is outstanding. Mr. Canon refers to me as pathetic, shameless and smelling like excrement AND he does it all hiding behind a code name. Yet, its MY response that is being viewed as condescending. Are you kidding me? When I was elected I did not give up my right to respond to insults or death wishes (which I have also received). Give me a break. I guess I should have pointed out the strength of Canon’s argument. Most people agree that your arguments are strongest if you can string together at least 3 insults in one paragraph. Canon pulls this off. He strings to gether pathetic, shameless, bastards, and a roundabout reference to being full of ___. He also, starts by using “Sammy” which is a very subtle but brilliant poke in the side. He is able to do all of this but yet really say nothing except of course that his man Kelty has the republican base behind him.

You are so right Jimmy, I stand corrected.

Thank you for proving my point so ably Mr. Talarico. You have demonstrated for all of AWB’s readers that you somehow regard the rest of us (myself included) as lesser beings. While I agree that you have a right to respond to insults, your particular method was, and continues to be somewhat beneath the dignity of an elected official in a city such as Fort Wayne. As a city councilman, you bear an implicit responsibility to elevate the tone of discussion where possible, rather than lower your standards to a level which you have already criticized. With regard to the term “bastards” I disagree with Cannon Man’s choice of words, as I know you do not meet this definition. I have nothing but the highest regard for your family, and can remember my son returning from his school day at St. Jude’s with tears streaming down his face after he had heard that his favorite teacher’s wife had passed away. Is a bit of civility too much to ask, even though it is not reciprocated? I have voted for you in the past, and I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt even now, but you’re actually making it quite difficult.

Interesting conversation going on here.

I have to agree with Jim that certain members on the City Council believe they are far more educated, informed, intelligent and altogether “better” than the average citizen. To know that Dr. Crawford exclaimed, “look what the cat dragged in” after Matt Kelty’s victory during the primary is proof-positive. That man really does think he knows more, has the best ideas, is much better than anyone else….

very - very - arrogant.

Tim Pape’s stupid invitation which took a stab at Matt Kelty is another example of blind arrogance.

I think their days are numbered~

With all of this banter about how people should or should not respond to comments and how Council should talk to the public….. a fine person reminded last night…. We are all the same in the end.

We all put our pants on one leg at a time and get one foot in each shoe.

I don’t know whose fault it is, if you can assign it, but plenty of people have lost sight of the fact we really should be able to just listen to each other.

What the heck are the wheels coming off the cart or what?

I have no problem with Mr. Talarico statements made here today. What he says from the seat of the council chambers is one thing and what he says away from that seat is up to him.

Like any of us, we conduct ourselves one way in fromal meetings but when they conclude we are once again ourselves. In a meeting I may refer to somone as Mr John Jones but when the meeting is conclued I might call him JJ. Or, if I hate his guts some other name.

I look at this way. If someone wants to start throwing pebbles then they better be ready for rocks to come flying back.

Maybe like when I played football. If the guy across from me wanted to play silly games of cheap stuff then the cheap stuff was going back.

When council is in session I owe Mr. Talarico’s position a certain level of respect and likewise he should afford me the same. However, when the meeting is concluded he can call me a dumb_ss if he wants. Then again, I can call him one back.

I’m going to have to side with Sam on this one. He was anonymously attacked with a string of ridiculous insults and decided to point out that said attacks added nothing to intelligent discussion. And yet somehow he’s criticized for pointing that out? I for one am surprised his retort was as mild as it was. Just because you’re a public official doesn’t mean you have to tolerate baseless attacks.

Many people in the blogosphere want to hurl anonymous insults and then cry foul when someone hits back…

OK, now let’s summarize the discussion above:

(Quotes and names have been abbreviated in order to focus on points relevant to this summary.)

1. AWB: The stated cost of building the hotel may be underpriced.

2. Sam Talarico, Jr.: There may be variances in costs, due to location. FW will be cheaper than Las Vegas.

3. J Q Taxpayer: Talarico’s comments are worth considering (doesn’t say whether he agrees or disagrees with him though.)

4. Cannon Man: Talarico is a pathetic, piece of s–t, bastard.

5. AWB: Quotes a story from newspaper regarding the cost of a hotel.

6. Talarico: Nice intelligent response cannon man.

7. Jeff Pruitt: AWB’s point was that the hotel could probably not be built anywhere for as low cost as they implied.

8. Talarico: Jeff, you are wrong here. It’s too much information to post, but I’d be glad to talk with you about it.

9. Jim: Mr. Talarico, Cannon Man was merely stating his opinion regarding your performance and positions as an elected official. His writing style is not the same as yours, but his opinions and beliefs are no less worth of consideration than yours. Your condescending reply is symptomatic of the attitude of elected officials toward those who pay the bills in this city. Perhaps you should reevaluate who serves whom and conduct yourself accordingly.

10. Talarico: Jim, your response is outstanding. Mr. Canon refers to me as pathetic, shameless and smelling like excrement AND he does it all hiding behind a code name. Yet, its MY response that is being viewed as condescending. Are you kidding me? When I was elected I did not give up my right to respond to insults. Give me a break. You are so right Jimmy, I stand corrected.

11: Jim: Thank you for proving my point so ably Mr. Talarico. You have demonstrated that you regard the rest of us (myself included) as lesser beings. While I agree that you have a right to respond to insults, your particular method was somewhat beneath the dignity of an elected official in Fort Wayne. As a city councilman, you bear an implicit responsibility to elevate the tone of discussion where possible, rather than lower your standards to a level which you have already criticized. With regard to the term “bastards” I disagree with Cannon Man’s choice of words, as I know you do not meet this definition. Is a bit of civility too much to ask, even though it is not reciprocated? I have voted for you in the past, and I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt even now, but you’re actually making it quite difficult.

12. Phil Marx: This started out as a discussion about the Harrison Square project. Then Cannon Man interrupted by calling Talarico a dirty bastard. In addition to being a personal attack, his comments actually had no bearing whatsoever upon the relevant point of discussion. Talarico responded to this by basically waving his hand in the air and saying “whatever”.

Then, it got really interesting. Jim responded, defending Cannon Man’s right to question the political positions held by Talarico (even though Cannon’s comments had nothing to do with this). He then adds that Cannon’s claim of Talarico’s bastardization is worthy of consideration.

Talarico then responds with appropriate disbelief at the fact that his innoculous comments are being criticized, while the fact that he was called a pathetic bastard is being ignored. Jim responds to this by saying “see, you’re proving my point again.”

——————————————————————————–

It seems to me that Talarico’s initial response to Cannon Man was not over-the-top, as was implied by Jim. Sure, Talarico could have simply ignored it, and the dialogue probably would have been better. But I don’t think it’s fair to critcize someone for making a very civil reply to a harsh personal attack.

I have plenty of disagreements with Sam Talarico Jr. - on the issues. I don’t know him very well personally, but my limited knowledge in this respect leads me to conclude that he would usually prefer to sit down and talk face-to-face with someone he disagrees with politically, and explain his position to them .

I still wouldn’t vote for Talarico (if he were running), but this is because of disagreement on the issues. However, the more I get to know of him personally (including his postings on the blogs) I am concluding that if the two of us were ever in a bar-room brawl, it’s most likely that I would be on his side.

My compliments to Jeff Pruitt and AWB for attempting to keep this discussion focused on the issues. That’s why your sites rock - more dialogue than b.s. (usually)

A few comments: 1) Is is really any surprise that the hotel figures are questionable? Hasn’t EVERYTHING about the HS project been questionable? I keep getting the impression that City Council is trying to fool all of us. And, like with AWB bringing “attention” to the hotel figures, when City Council’s figures are questioned, they get defensive and angry and call the citizens they are elected by fools.
2) Mr. Talarico, While I understand your need to defend yourself, you are an elected official and leader in our City. You are a name that is recognized by others whether they know you personally or not. Arguing with someone on blog comments isn’t very professional. I am not trying to attack you personally. But, people out here in “blogland” have opionions and they are going to voice them. Some more than others because they can hide behind a name and say whatever they want. I appreciate the fact that you do read what is going on out here with “the people” and you do comment. But, please just give us a Councilman’s view and your opinion, not the bickering. By the way, thank you for serving our City.

Jim, you stick up for the guy who calls me a bastard, pathetic and being full of ___, and then you pay tribute to my family. Not quite sure how to take it. I have decided to take part in the blogging world because it has become an important part of communication with citizens. However, “civility” is not a concept that is always complied with on blogs. My skin is pretty thick but anonymous over the top insults are a little hard to ignore.

It probably doesn’t mean much, but I also think Sam, Jr. is on the right side in this argument, even if he seems to be on the “left” side generally. Anybody ever see him coaching Little League? I understand he’s pretty good. I also thank Sam for his sometimes thankless work on our Common Council - heck we will not have him to kick around anymore (and there isn’t even a dog involved ha-ha). John B. Kalb